Can you practice Energy Healing LEGALLY? - Dr. Melinda Connor

In this episode, we speak to Dr. Melinda Connor on the history and current legal situation with practicing energy in the United States.

Dr. Melinda H. Connor, D.D., PH.D., AMP, FAM, EHP-C, holds degrees from Harvard University, Wellesley College, University of San Francisco, American Military University, California Coast University and University of Arizona and was a National Institutes of Health T-32 post doctoral fellow at the University of Arizona in the Program in Integrative Medicine. Dr. Connor is the current Director of Research for Akamai University and is a former Chair of the National Alliance of Energy Practitioners. She is a fellow of the American Alternative Medicine Association and the Royal Society of Medicine (UK), the founder of Earthsongs Holistic Consulting, the lineage holder for the Resonance Modulation ™ training program and has written ten books. Recently awards include: Recognition from the California State Legislative Assembly 2021, Scientist of the Year 2021 - World Qigong Congress, CEO Today magazine - 2023 Holistic Research and Consulting, International Association of Top Professionals - 2024 Holistic Practitioner of the year and Marquise Who's Who Women in America.

 
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Transcript

0:01

Namaste, everyone. Welcome to the Chronic Healing Podcast. On this episode, we have a very interesting and important topic that relates to energy medicine practitioners and the legal landscape in practicing energy medicine, specifically in the United States. And our guest speaker today is Dr. Melinda H. Connor. Dr melinda is the current Director of Research at the Akaimai University and is the current former chair of the National Alliance of Energy Practitioners. She holds degrees from Harvard University, Wesley College, University of San Francisco, the American Military University, california Coast University, and the University of Arizona. Please welcome Dr. Melinda. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Melinda. And I forgot to I'm sorry if I butchered your Director of Research and can you pronounce that university for me? It's Akamai. Akamai. Okay. Akamai University. And that's in, correct? Well, it's one of the offices is in Hawaii, one is in North Carolina, but it's actually accredited out of the UK. It's an international university and we do a lot of work with third world countries. We do some work here in the US. Some in Canada, some in Mexico, Costa Rica, places like that. That's a very broad reaching influence that you have there. And you are the Director of Research. So, speaking of research and more of the objective nature of energy medicine, today's topic is very near and dear to all of our hearts because it's maybe something that we haven't thought about in terms of the legal landscape of practicing energy medicine. But before we get into that, I just want the audience to know a little bit about yourself because I gave you a little brief intro, but anything else to kind of add to it to make it basically why you're in this field and why you're so passionate in doing the work that you've been doing. Because just to getting knowing you, it's amazing to find out all of the history and experience that you have under your belt and the current projects as well is very exciting. So just a little bit about that. Well, let's see. I started the energy work at the age of four in my grandmother's rose garden. And we started with you will breathe deeply, you will feel the earth under your feet, you will ground into the earth, things like that. And over the years, growing up, I paid attention to it until I hit my teenage years and grandmother had passed and kind of lost touch with all of it until I hit my was not able to get pregnant properly. And so I went back to my roots and started to do breath work and meditation and more energy work and learned lots and lots of different styles of energy work because I wanted community. And I'm what's called a born visual. So I've never not seen the field layers and I hear in weird ranges. I've actually been tested for that. I'm kind of an anomaly. I kind of see better in the dark than most people. I adapt better to the dark than most people. So it's like being one kind of violin versus another kind of violin. Each has beautiful properties. So got more and more involved in the alternative work. Eventually ended up with a degree in PhD in clinical psychology and then did rotations in neuropsychology. And then I was lucky enough to land National Institutes of Health fellowship in Research on Integrative medicine and came to University of Arizona with Dr. Weil and Dr. Bell and Dr. Mazes and was in heaven doing all sorts of wonderful things with all of those folks. I got to be mentored by Dr. Gary Schwartz. And so got really good, hardcore, old fashioned, rigorous research training, which has been wonderful. And so most of what I do these days actually is research on alternative medicine of various kind. I do a little bit of teaching and a little bit of mentoring. I have not got an open healing practice at this time. I'm moving back into that as I retire more from the research. But it has been this remarkable, wonderful, delicious journey in this process that's amazing. And I love the word that you described. It a delicious journey. I don't think that's ever been said on this podcast before, but it's a very good summary of your experience. Dr. Melinda, just like you said, kind of growing up young age with your grandmother that sounds so beautiful and heartwarming in the garden and going back to your roots of it sounds like this was meant to be your path. It sounded like you had these sort of extra sensory abilities and you were maybe a little bit different than the traditional set of violins out there. But we're so happy and grateful to be present with you and talk to you about such an important topic today because it has profound future impacts on energy medicine practitioners throughout the world. So thank you for that wonderful introduction. So let's kind of get into it. Dr. Melinda, for the layperson out there, what does it mean to practice energy medicine in the current legal landscape that we have right now? Because a lot of people get confused. Like, some people say, oh, I don't need a license, I just need a certification. I went to this school, but some people say, oh, you have to have a license. So can you help us clarify that? Okay, so the answer is yes, it's complicated healthcare in the US. And let me qualify this first. I am not an attorney, so please, if you're interested in practicing in your own state, consult an attorney and find the specifics for your state. So I'm going to talk in generalities mostly. I was fortunate to work with Swanken and Turner, which is a law firm in DC, both with Jim Turner prior to him passing, and to Betsy Lerfeld, who is a goddess at all things legal and with a number of other attorneys over the years. There are some remarkable experts out there. Mitch Murphy, who is risk management expert, michael Cohen, who is an expert on state type information. He was able to do some studies at Harvard. So they're among those that are out there that are fabulous and very skilled. So overview kinds of things. All healthcare in the US. Is done in terms of licensure on a state by state level. Every state has the right to work out its own path. So for some states, it's going to be a Health Freedom Act is the right path. For some states, it's licensure through massage therapy or through a change in your scope of practice. If you're already licensed to include energy healing and let me just interrupt you, Dr. Melinda, what does it mean, the Health Freedom Act compared to licensure? Because some people might not know what that is. Okay, so Health Freedom Acts in this country relating to the energy practices, and I'm not calling them energy medicine because in some states, the word medicine is a reserve word and can only be used by a licensed healthcare professional when it's considered in their scope of practice. Okay, so early work was done in Minnesota for one of the early Health Freedom Acts we had. Diane is a remarkable individual. She was on a difficult care journey, and when she found she couldn't get access to the care she needed to, she became an attorney and developed that to be able to access the health care she needed. That's amazing. The challenge is that most of the health care acts are done in a limited form. They only give you the right to access care. So they don't protect the consumer and they don't protect the practitioner. So if you see most Healthcare Freedom Acts, they just kind of say, okay, yes, you can go get what you want. That also doesn't talk about local regulations. When you go, for example, as a practitioner to get a business license, what are the local regulations? So you have a federal level, which healthcare isn't done at. It's done at the state level. Then you come down to the state level, and you have to look at a state level, what does it say at a county level? What does it say at a city level? What does it say? Because there may be regulations at any place in those processes. And as I said, it's different for every state. So, for example, if you're a qigong practitioner in Indiana, you come under Asian body work. In Massachusetts, you don't in Ohio, if you're doing energy healing work, then you come under the Board of Medicine, which is a board of registration. And the Board of Medicine says you have to go get a massage therapy credential in order to practice energy healing. So the Reiki practitioner, who has spent maybe $600 getting their mastery in reiki, then has to go out and get 7000 $2,000 training in massage therapy in order to be able to start a business doing healing work. So it depends on each state, and you have to find each state's regulation. We have 24 states now in the US. Who say for the generic practitioner, somebody who's not a nurse, who's not a doctor, who's not a medical assistant, who's not a physical therapist, who's not a chiropractor, who's not a psychologist, not an osteopathic physician, not an acupuncturist, the average practitioner that they have to go get a massage therapy credential and be licensed as a massage therapist before they can practice. Now a large part of your audience is going to go, no, I'm ordained. It doesn't apply to me. Well, actually, it may. Many of the states have overturned the exemptions that were put in the 1930s, back when the Christian Scientist community began to establish christian Science hospitals and healing processes and were protected under religious Freedom Acts. Many practitioners of my age, and I'm in late 60s, early 70s years old, were able to begin their practice under the same kinds of religious exemptions which allowed health care to be done from a spiritual perspective as a religious practice. I think I've read like, laying of the hands is something I remember seeing those words when it comes to being ordained in spiritual practice. Is that correct? I think I've read absolutely. It was called laying on of hands in those days. And all of the different styles of energy work, all of the shamanic work, all of the medical intuitive work, all the qigong, all the tai chi, all of that was lumped under laying on of hands. So there was no specificity, there was no distinguishing. And in those days, you were expected to be ordained through a regular, rigorous religious training program and to act as a pastor in whatever faith you are a pastor or a priest or an iman or whatever faith you were. So that it was very much a spiritual, religious process that has changed over the years. And what caused the change was a number of children becoming very ill, not being given access to Western medical care because primarily their parents choices or financial choices or beliefs around the effectiveness of various kinds of alternative health care. And I'm kind of of the opinion you use everything you can to heal yourself. I'm a cross species integrator. So if acupuncture is best, do that. If acupuncture combined with Western medicine is the best, do that. If homeopathy and Western medicine work best for your body, do that. What is the best for you as an individual? You're an individual work of art. So from that perspective, people began to look at, okay, some children actually could have been treated for this effectively, and instead they've lost their life. How are we going to address this? And so it made its way through the courts in many states, and in those states, a number of the courts came down with decisions. And there is a wonderful article, and what I'll do, Jason, is I'll email you a copy. Yes. And I can link it below for everyone. Okay, well, what I sent you, the first one was the state information specifically, but I also have one that's written by attorney generals in each state about the policy with spiritual healing, work and children and the way the religious exemptions are written. They apply to adults as well. And in some states, what you actually have to be is ordained through a regular tradition. And that's not ordinarily the $25 certificate that you're now ordained, but it's the more formal two or three years of traditional training in whatever discipline you're involved in. You have to be practicing in a religious setting. I-E-A church, a temple, a mosque. You have to be working on parishioners people who are part of your congregation, and you have to offer religious services for that congregation on a regular basis. Now, that's the most detailed and extreme version. There are states that have different requirements that say, yes, the $25 ordination is fine, and in particular, Universal Life Church, for example, is actually fought their way all the way through the Federal Supreme Court to be called a church. It's one of the few that's actually designated legally by the federal government as a church. So there are those that have done the background work to support the individuals providing services. So it's absolutely state dependent. It's cross current dependent. So you may need a massage therapy, credential and not an ordination. You may be okay with an ordination if you're practicing, say, in your church or your temple, but you may not be okay if you're practicing out to the general public. It depends how the laws are written. Yeah. Wow. Just to kind of recap, because there was a lot that you mentioned there, Dr. Melinda. And I want to make sure the audience kind keeps up with everything, because you said some very in terms of the bigger picture, I can totally see how it's complicated. Right. You mentioned at the federal level and then at the state level and even at the local city government level, it seems like there's a lot of different patches, if you will, just with the nature of what we're talking about. Because when I say energy medicine, energy healing, we are talking about so much more given the historical context that you mentioned with spiritual healing, laying of the hands in terms of religious organizations and things like that. But now it seems like we're getting more specific, as you mentioned, like different practices have to be not only addressed but recognized in terms of more of the modern state of healthcare, which is licensure right. The license to practice healthcare and medicine. And it's different for every state. And I'm very curious because I think if not, 99% of people don't know about this, but they're still practicing, right? They take their Reiki certification and they're going about their life just practicing, and they don't know about this. How long can we keep doing this? Or do you see eventually everyone, not only Reiki practitioners, pranic, healers, Qigong practitioners, all of us will eventually get clumped up to some umbrella that has much, hopefully a more organized way of regulating this practice. What do you think? What are your thoughts or comments on that? Well, it's twofold, the first one of which is, is it potentially harmful? And the answer is not enough. Research has been done on alternative practices, and this is not specific to energy medicine, because actually, energy healing, energy medicine has an evidence based body of research. Now, depending on who you talk to, anywhere from 7000 to 15,000 peer reviewed journal articles are out there, and those articles provide an evidence base for energy healing work. In the broader context of alternative medicine, we have hundreds of different techniques, everything from ear candling to cranial sacral work, which can be part of massage therapy, but isn't necessarily part of massage therapy, to various kinds of foot raker techniques. There are a tremendous number of options that are out there just within the energy healing community and the Qigong community in the US. There are over 7000 kinds of Qigong being practiced in the US. 7000? Yeah, it's a lot. So regulating all of those different pieces is very, very difficult. So eventually putting in some umbrellas is useful. So at the request of various presidents of the United States, we actually went forward and founded the National Certification Center of Energy Practitioners, and we developed eleven divisions. Now, we're always welcoming additional divisions. If you get three training programs that would like to develop their own division, that's certainly a possibility. We take a look at the differences, how they fit into what's existing, and those kinds of things. What we've made common in the National Certification Center is it's one ethics test for every energy practitioner. So it's a standard hardcore ethics test. Same thing. Nurses, when they finish their nursing school and go take their national boards. There's one ethics test on the national boards for every nurse in the country. Same kind of thing. One ethics test, that's part of certification for acupuncturists across the country, for physicians across the country, so that there is a common language. The other thing we've done is one set of standard practices for every division across the country. So those things are there. They're available. The certification, national certification is available for energy practitioners. If you choose to go in that direction, it is possible that some states will require it eventually, because it does split it out, but it is specific to the energy healing practices community. It's not alternative therapies across the board. So it is a slightly different viewpoint than many politicians have right now who are struggling with the issue. Alternative health care is complex, and because much of it has not been researched and needs to be researched. The place to start is actually really with funding on alternative healthcare work and the creation of standards and curriculum. Not so that we can limit practitioners, instead so that we can support practitioners, so we know that they have an ethical practice, a care based practice with appropriate boundaries, and so that we know that they're working from a compassionate place rather than a place of betrayal. Because we do have practitioners that are coming from the wrong spot at this point. And if we can help them instead be successful, instead really support the healing of the country and become a more compassionate world, that's a beautiful thing. It is. And I think that speaking of everything that you spoke about with the National Certification Center is drawing the overlapping circles of what do we have compared to other more traditional healthcare practitioners have or need? And starting with ethics is huge, right? Because you need that for everything. And you can use basically the same tests from nurses, doctors, and applied the same for energy healers as well, because you're in the same situation for the most part. And then with the standard of practice and care, I think that's very important because from the outside looking in of either people that do not know about energy healing, it might seem like the wild, wild west, right? You have, like you mentioned, over 7000 different types of Qigong practices. And to give you context, Dr. Melinda I was at the Tai Chi Qigong conference in Boston, hosted by Harvard, and there was speaking of licensing and regulating, there was some debate between having it under all one umbrella, right, in terms of certification, licensure, and whether some lineages would lose their touch, lose the authenticity, if it was grouped that way. So this is a very exciting but interesting conversation because it's still new, right? It's still new and we're trying to tie up the loose ends as best as possible, but we're doing it with a good intention, like you mentioned it's, to give options for the healthcare landscape and to bring a broader approach. Not that reductionism in medicine is good and important, but again, this holistic integrative approach is more of the future that you and I both agree. And hopefully the United States can be the role model and other countries can start hopefully adapting this model too, to be applied there. Because, again, energy healing, it exists throughout the world, but it seems like United States is one of the leaders in trying to get this moving and forward, especially with your work. So, Switzerland energy healing is actually a licensed process already. Oh, excellent. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's cool. And in the UK, it's actively under discussion. They started from a different viewpoint than we did. We started from ethics, they started from curriculum and establishing standard curriculum standards across different schools of thought. One of the things that we did here in the US. Which is kind of unique to us, is we brought the practitioner groups together. So we brought groups of Reiki practitioners together, and we brought groups of Qigong practitioners together, and we brought groups of Full Spectrum practitioners together to talk about what should the standards for your group be. So the practitioners birthed the standards, not the federal government, not the politicians who are not practitioners, not talking heads, but rather the practitioners of that style of work, of that type of group, went ahead and brought that to the present. So for example, for Qigong, we're only talking about emitted Qi. We are not talking about Qigong dung in the park, we're talking about emitted Qi used for healthcare purposes, and we separated out. So there's a traditional pathway which is a lineage pathway. There's also a school based pathway which is similar to Acupuncture work. There's also a spiritually based pathway which comes under the spiritual healing community. And that way Qigong practitioners, no matter the background, have a pathway which is correct for their particular lineage and tradition and way of working. Is it optional to do one or do you have to do all of it, all these pathways, you just do the one that's correct for your training. So if you're trained in a lineage pathway to the point that you can competently do emitted chi and support the health and healing of individuals, then that is one pathway forward. And it has one particular set of requirements. If you are working from a school based process, we have a wonderful College of Qigong Medical School that's based in Tennessee, and Sifu Bernard Shannon runs that program, and it produces formally trained medical Qigong practitioners and again, closer to the tradition of an Acupuncture training program. So you have a variety. Then you have Taoist priests, for example, who are yet another training pathway. So we have tried very hard to pay attention to particular groups. For example, the requirements for a Shamanic practitioner are very different than for a Full Spectrum practitioner. Full Spectrum practitioners, we ask them to go through an empirical test that's been developed that actually demonstrates the skills. A Shamanic practitioner is calling on the spirits. That's not so easy to quantify. So there is a different set of requirements for a Shamanic practitioner. I want to bring up one other piece, which is indigenous practices, which is very important because there is confusion about that at this time and it has not been fully resolved. There's a huge schism in terms of what people know and what people believe. If you are an indigenous practitioner on a reservation doing an indigenous healing practice, you are legally protected working on your practitioners, and in fact, you are the most legally protected of any energy practitioner anywhere in the country. If you are not a member of the tribe, registered member of the tribe, and you are working out in town, you are not protected. You can make the argument and the court may in fact decide to support you. But currently the legislation is not in place and the rulings are not in place. So that you're not necessarily protected. And again, it differs slightly from state to state, but it is an important consideration for people who are indigenous practitioners, and the indigenous practitioners protections don't necessarily apply to someone who is not on a quote unquote reservation and is not, quote unquote, a registered tribe member. Okay? Very important distinctions. It's also important to clarify that indigenous practitioners are trained over years and years and years of work. They're individually mentored, they're cherished, they're grown. Okay? They are not let's take a weekend workshop. And I know everything there is to know about shamanism. That's not how it works. So honoring and respecting the traditions that you're being trained in is also part of being in integrity with yourself and integrity with the work. And that's a very key piece for practitioners to include. Tool set. Yeah, and thank you for bringing that up. Again, I think the example of the indigenous workers and healers and how they have it's almost like an apprenticeship. It's years and years of this training. It's not necessarily a curriculum like you mentioned or a weekend course that you can just sign up and start going about practicing. And I think it just highlights, really, the rainbow of the challenges that we have in this current state of all these different practices and trying to not only understand what each practice is about in terms of how they practice and the standard of practice, like you mentioned, and with the ethics, but maintaining that authenticity of that lineage. And you mentioned those three pathways with the Qigong practices and schools with the lineage and then more of the traditional school and more of I think the last one was more of the spiritual. So, you know, in terms know, trying to piece this all together in looking forward down the future. Dr. Melinda. I know it might be. And I'm sure it's on your mind if you thought about it already, but let's say like, ten years, 1020 years down the line if this current work that you're doing and a lot of all these different practitioner councils are doing and we're coming together and we're really pushing this forward to have this objective fine print that this is the way we practice and this is safe to be a part. Of the healthcare landscape. What would need to happen in the next ten to 20 years for us to kind of get to that place? Research discussions within groups, within states, energy practitioners, instead of saying, well, I'm not being prosecuted, I can go on the way I am, actually standing up and being counted. How is it that you as a professional practitioner want to be represented? How do you want to show yourself to your clients that you are effective you are capable, you are careful, you hold appropriate boundaries that you can support them in their healthcare journey. Those are really important questions for the individual practitioner to ask of themselves. And then once they have done that, then to say, okay, what do I want to create in my state and my environment to cherish and appropriately support my clients in my state and myself? Good self care energy healing work actually presents a unique challenge in all of the alternative work. And that's because it can be done at a distance if the practitioner is capable of that. We're actually doing some active research on that. We know that groups of practitioners, based on some studies that were done at Duke and at Pacific Medical Center in San Francisco, can make a difference. But what about the individual practitioner doing work at a distance? Are they effective? Can they create the changes or open up an environment for the client to create their own change for, say, a Western medicine practice to become more effective for that client? There's a range of options that are available. We also have people working across country lines. So from Canada to the US. US. To Canada, us. To Europe, us. To the Far East, US to various places in Asia and Africa. So it's actually extremely important to do some real looking and some careful looking at can the practitioner work at a distance and be competent and effective? Can the practitioner behave ethically according to the environment that they're working in? The cultural environment, sensitivity has to be a factor in this process, and it changes depending on the country that you're in. So what's appropriate in one area may not be appropriate when we go to another country. And we need to pay attention to that as well. So there are lots of levels that can be worked on. The who, the World Health Organization is at this time taking a really good look at traditional medicine and energy healing practices, comes under traditional medicine. And we're actually the alliance of Energy Healing Training Programs. It's called the National Alliance of Energy Practitioners and the National Certification Center of Energy Practitioners are both participating in what's called a citizens society and supporting the World Health Organization's exploration of what are the appropriate boundaries across the world, what are the appropriate designations? How can this work be the most effective, the most appropriate for the particular environment? So that can be a key factor in how things develop. So we'll see what happens on an international level as well as a national level as time goes on. And the biggest thing is get involved. If you are a professional practitioner, behave as a professional practitioner. What are your standards, what are your ethical standards? What are your standards of practice? If you go on vacation, do you have someone who will cherish the person appropriately when you're on vacation? If they have some sort of an emergency, who is. Competently, trained to refer them if they need a referral to a different type of practitioner. Maybe it's a physician, maybe it's not. Maybe it's a massage therapist, maybe it's not. Maybe it's someone doing hyperbaric chamber work who has the skills in those areas. So there are lots of considerations when you step into the process of becoming a professional practitioner. And maybe you have a small practice. You work on five people a month, and so those are your friends, your family members. You're a little less concerned, but don't friends and family members because they're people that are in your life and you cherish in your life, are they not worthy of your best care? So keep that in mind. Even if you're a small practitioner, if you're a large practitioner with a training program with thousands and thousands of people across the world, what is important for your students to carry forward as your legacy? What is important for your students to stand where their hearts are, where their compassionate is, where their boundaries are? What are the standards that you're teaching? One of the key things that we found as we started to do research on Reiki practitioners was that many were not teaching anything past the Reiki precepts. They did not teach standards of practice. They did not teach formal ethical standards. That's something to consider if you're teaching Reiki students. What are the standards you want to impart to your students? And it's not specific to the Reiki community. There are many communities that were teaching skills and nothing more, and that is, of course, a right of the teacher to just teach skills. But I would encourage them to consider that ethics are a skill as and, you know, I think that what you, Melinda, is some of the important pieces that we really have to look at with a fine tooth comb. When it comes to doing this seriously on the level of not only the care of a practitioner and the practice and how well you do it, but also the small things that come into play that may get brushed under a rug. And we don't talk about. And coming from the perspective of chronic healing, we definitely have that incorporated within our own system and certification when we talk about ethics and disclaimers and things like that. But I think that the conversation that we had today was so important because no one really talks about it, to be honest. No one tells after class, oh, by the way, in Ohio you need a massage license, right, to practice. But in other states you don't. So it's definitely very interesting. I think the conversation will continue. And as you mentioned, this is really a grassroots movement from all practitioners, definitely in terms of the involvement federal, state, local, but also on the broader scope with the who and the work that you're doing there. I think it's coming together. So it's exciting. I'm very passionate. Of course, we're both very passionate about this work. So I think good things are here to come and like, you know, we need more research, we need more funding, and we just need people know, just come together and start pushing this out there. So any last words, Dr. Melinda, to share with our audience? Any advice or any tips for us to continue practicing and moving forward? Oh, wow, that's a tough one. Not an easy answer, but it can be. It can be as short or as long as you want it. Remember boundaries. When you're cherishing people, you do people no favor not to stand in truth. And you do people no favor when you have a distortion and you go and you don't go get it cleaned up. You are responsible for the type of care you provide. Clean up your own mess first and then act as a professional with integrity, competence, care, and hopefully we make the world a better place. And hopefully we make the world a better place. I 1000% agree with you, Dr. Munda. And thank you again so much for this amazing conversation. I think that the work that you're doing along with all your organizations is amazing. It's going to really help drive all of us forward. And like you said, it's all about integrating the past with the present, with the future in terms of all these amazing spectrum of healing arts. So thank you so much again, Dr. Melinda, and I think we'll definitely continue the series as know information comes know again, this is definitely a evolving process. And then later next time, we'll speak to your daughter Caitlin about more of the exciting research tidbits of energy healing in that world. But thank you again, Dr. Amenda, and we hope everyone enjoys the rest of their day. Namaste and we hope to see you in the next podcast. Thank you. Bye.